Announcer: Welcome to Leadership Development News, profiles and practices of top performers. Leaders are the heartbeat of any organization. Let Cathy Greenberg and Relly Nadler share with you the pathway to becoming a top leader in your organization. Now here are your hosts, Dr. Greenberg and Dr. Nadler.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Welcome to Leadership Development News, profiles and practices of top performers. I'm Dr. Relly Nadler. Dr. Cathy Greenberg and I have been doing this show for over twenty years.
And what we love to do is bring you tips, tools to be your best. We interview a lot of authors and gurus and thought leaders who are bringing you what's unique and what's the best thing that are out there. And today we're going to talk about the Unreliable Narrator: Why Leaders Can't See Their Own Story. I love this title. We're going to talk with Federico Malatesta.
And just the idea of, I imagine he's going to get into blind spots. And Kat and I work with executives all the time. And why do they work with us? Because they can't see their blind spots. So we put on supervision and we can help them with their blind spots.
And sometimes that's challenging because nobody wants to necessarily hear what they're doing wrong. So it has to be done in a good way that they can hear it and they can work on it.
So we're gonna tap Federico to see what's in his new book that comes out just next week. And, Kat, welcome.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Well, thank you. I'm really happy to be on today's show because we're talking to someone who has one of my favorite accents. As many of you know, I just love Italy.
It's one of my favorite places in the whole wide world. And I am so happy that we're gonna be talking about kind of self delusion. I mean, who doesn't have ideas about who they are that doesn't fit anybody else's perspective of them? I think, you know, just for a lot of people who are out there in the audience, we go through life having these unconscious thoughts about ourselves, and they really get in the way. So I'm hoping I'm gonna learn a little bit today about what I can do differently.
And I know that in each and every show, we really try to offer our audience some tools, some techniques. And, you know, obviously, Relly, with, you know, all the things that you've done over the course of your career and the things I've done in the course of my career.
You know, we have lots of tools and techniques, but it's always good to hear from outsiders. So I'm really excited to to have our guest, Federico Malatesta, with us today.
Federico Malatesta: All right, Cathy and Relly, my pleasure. It's nice to be here.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Yay. We're gonna officially introduce you in a moment, but let's just kind of set the context of why this self delusion and why we need to to, unpack that. So here's the four key challenges that we see all the time with leaders. One, everything is more. More distress, more pressure, more anxiety, more uncertainty.
Whatever the adjective is, put the more sign in front of it. That's what's going on for us. So we're all on overwhelm. And if we're on overwhelm, we may overreact. And so that's number one.
Number two, which Federico is going to help us do, we're not as self aware as we think we are. And some of the research is saying, Oh yeah, are you self aware? Sure. I know what's going on for me. Well, in reality, it's about 15% of us are truly self aware.
That's why you need somebody else as a thought partner. So that's number two. We're not that self aware and all everything's going on. And then what's happening? And we know from the brain neuroscience, we're on autopilot.
So we're not thinking, and we're just going to what worked before and what worked before may not work now. So that's number three. And then what we're doing here, and we're going to pick Federico's brain and what Kat and I do in coaching and leadership is slow thinking.
Unless there's an emergency, you actually have time to think, reflect, look at different scenarios. And so those four dynamics are happening for all of us.
And that's one of the reasons that Kat and I know emotional intelligence is less these days than it has been. And it's less for the younger generation because of so much with everything being on screen. So, Cathy, any words you want to say about that and then introduce Federico?
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Yeah. Here's what I want to say, and then I will introduce our guest. We're living in a time where many people are using their ChatGPT as their only reflection. And when you are living in a time where your, I'll just say your chatbot, tends to agree with everything you say, it's gonna be very hard for you to understand what might be getting in your way. And so I'm very excited to introduce our guest today, Federico Malatesta, because he's gonna tell us how we can stop lying to ourselves.
He spent fifteen years in global energy rising to CIO of a $40,000,000,000 portfolio before leaving to study something most executives won't admit they're up against, why success stops, meaning anything. And if you haven't reached that point in your life, prepare yourself. Put your seat belt on. It will come.
He's the founder of FM, transformational coaching, the author of the forthcoming, they are lying to you, the self help delusion. And he makes the case that no protocol, framework, or optimized morning routine is gonna fix a story that has stopped working. Federico works with executives and senior leaders who've hit the ceiling of what performance can deliver, people who are competent, accomplished, and quietly stuck.
His approach draws on narrative theory, neuroscience, and contemporary psychoanalytic thought rather than slogans and protocols. He writes regularly on identity, leadership transitions, and narrative collapse. And his newsletter, Almost Everything is Context, has built a following among readers who find most coaching content intellectually thin.
We are very excited to have Federico with us today, and we'll tell you how you can reach him after we say hello and get to know him a little. Federico, welcome to the show.
Federico Malatesta: Cathy, Relly, thank you so much. Wonderful introduction. Love to be here. I'll do my best to put out my most Italian accent I can master. It shouldn't be that difficult.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Bravo.
Dr. Relly Nadler: And I would agree with Kat. You you could mumble and say incoherent stuff, and we will love it.
Federico Malatesta: I'm counting on that.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Alright. So, Federico, we all start with some of your key influences because you're gonna bring us some of your ideas today and and some of the transformations, but like, where do you... Where does that start? What are some of...
Federico Malatesta: I would say so it starts with my family. I was lucky. I was brought up in a very intellectual families, pretty much everyone in my family was either a writer or a journalist. So I grew up surrounded by very interesting people, writers, directors, journalists, art critics. So that was always been part of my world.
And I always loved literature. I started reading relatively early in life. By 15, I probably read all of the Russians. But I always had interest beyond that.
Was attracted to the world of economics and business. So some of my, if I can think of some names that can mean somebody to your listeners is, you know, probably Paul Krugman when it comes to economics, David Remnick when it comes to journalism, Warren Buffett that I know you like when it comes to business. These are some of the people that are sort of determined by my intellectual path.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Gorgeous. Well, you know, you have a very deep, deep background Learning a little bit about you, you grew up in Rome. You spent nearly fifteen years in oil and gas, and you ended as the CIO of a $40,000,000,000 portfolio. But now you coach senior executives from a working horse ranch in Texas. Okay.
Help us make the connection here.
Federico Malatesta: The connection is that I made it. There's not necessarily a connection. I sometimes use horses with clients, but not particularly often. Horses is a passion of mine that I developed over the years. If you want, we can talk about a later how it fits with my sort of narrative theory.
So horses are mostly for my personal pleasure and it's a good way of losing money, an intelligent way of losing money. And, and the coaching is my, you know, it's what I enjoy doing as work.
Dr. Relly Nadler: So, we'll probably get into that. Both Kat and I have done some stuff, on some of the working ranches in Tucson, where I know they had, horses and the whole thing about that a horse, can pick up whether they trust you or not, you know? And I think us as humans, we do that, but it maybe is it... I think I know with horses, can you pick up the tuff? I mean, it's right away.
It's immediate. Whereas as humans, I don't know about this person. We may not know as much. So maybe say a little bit about that tie in and the narrative piece, because I think that's where we really want to focus.
Federico Malatesta: Sure. So horses, I know, like, like in many, many areas of self-development, there are a lot of myths and like, and there is this myth, the horses that are mirror to the soul and they're wise and etcetera. And they're very nice words because they're amazing animals. What really happens is that horses are prey animals. So they have a situational awareness, which is way beyond what we can understand.
And so what they do pick up is incongruency in the movements that you make, in the language that you use. If you start screaming too much, if you raise your voice and they don't understand why you're doing that, They start to back away from you because suddenly there's something that they don't understand and therefore you might be dangerous. And usually they will come to you if you see that you are in that particular moment, a coherent being. And so often when leaders come, especially certain type of leaders who are, you know, who are used to giving orders, having people react immediately, they behave the same way with the horses and the other have too much energy or too little energy and the horse just doesn't like us and they start backing away and becomes nervous. So as you were saying, you get a feedback which is much faster than in a coaching relation.
In a coaching relation, a good client can lie to you for quite a while. With horses, it's a bit more difficult.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Oh, I wish my clients could get away with lying to me. It would be such a marvelous world just to ignore all the daydreams, but I digress. So let's talk a little bit about your new book. You have a new book coming out. They Are Lying to You, The Self-Help Delusion.
How does self development lie about the limits of self awareness? Because, you know, Relly and I have been talking about this on every show we have ever had for twenty years, almost 800 episodes, if not more.
And self awareness is so much more than just being cognizant, just being present, just being a good noticer. So talk a little bit about this new science that you've put around how we lie to ourselves.
Federico Malatesta: So the book has two different premises. The main premise is that... And I go back to Aristotle to look at why protocols don't work. So Aristotle, defined, different categories of behaviors in life.
For what concern us, he started talking about instrumental practices. So something and activities that generate something else. So a carpenter makes a chair. There is a technique involved in that, and there is a final product. You can teach someone how to do carpentry. No.
So then there is living a good life. Now living a good life is an activity by itself. There is no final product. There is no final product in doing something just. Justice is doing something just.
And what Aristotle said is that the worst thing you can do is use techniques. He call it techne to live a good life, which he called praxis. In order to live a good life, what you need is phronesis, which is practical judgment, practical wisdom. The moment you apply techniques to life, you're doing a category error. It will never work.
So that's the main premise of the book. So when people, when I hear people saying, look, there are four steps to solving a marriage. There are two steps to find happiness. There is something called the science of happiness is a complete misunderstanding of how life operates. So that's the main, if you want the main, sort of the foundation of the book.
And the other part is that even if you ignore this part and you shouldn't, but even if you ignore the actually the techniques that self help propose are flawed. They're based on bad science, on misunderstood psychology, on flawed neuroscience, and they will never deliver. They don't deliver because they're a category error, but also because the way they're proposed, they just don't make sense scientifically. So I went back and I looked at many areas of self help as I could. So I'm looking at sports as a bad metaphor for life.
I've looked at excellence, greatness, intuition, self awareness. I'm looking at people taking into religion and try to make it, you know, understandable by the Western minds. I'll look at yoga. So other very... I mean, you know, studies in psychology.
And I show that every single one of these realm is based on a faulty construction. So that's, in a nutshell, is a book.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Let me just see if I can understand this here for myself, but also for our guests. So you're saying the tactical piece, people are doing actions, but it maybe is not grounded. It's not, it's not bringing up their wisdom. It's kind of more tactical versus transformational. Maybe say a little bit more about how you're unpacking that.
Federico Malatesta: Yes. So the the... So let me... So a lot of the of the answers we hear from self help are three, four steps solutions. Now there is nothing wrong with the routine or a protocol at the end of the process at the implementation stage.
But first you need to know where are you going? Why are you going that way? Is something which is good for you? So until you have that in your head, the routine is meaningless. Mean, you can do a routine perfectly and it brings you nowhere.
Right. There is no connection between the two. Yeah.
Dr. Relly Nadler: So let me just say this and Kat turn it to you. So as I'm trying to understand this too, it's the self help is the what, and what you're saying is the why. Why is this important? Why are we even doing this? Is that right?
Federico Malatesta: Yeah. Yeah. The self help should be the how, but what I'm saying also is that the how doesn't work because it's based on bad science. It's based on misunderstood philosophy and so forth.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: And, you know, I understand to the point that most people think that if there's something that's bothering them, there must be a special magic formula somewhere that I can find that's going to cure me. So that's what I hear.
You're debunking this idea that anybody can figure out how to fix something, but not until they understand what they're trying to fix. And that misunderstanding and starting in a, if you will, environment in which you don't have that understanding, that foundation, you could go in the wrong direction and take steps that actually will fracture what you're trying to do further as opposed to create a holistic set of guardrails that take you to where you wanna go. We're gonna come right back.
Don't go away. We have so much more to share with our guests today, Federico Malatesta and his new book, They're Lying to You. Come right back. Don't go away. You're listening to Leadership Development News.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Welcome back to Leadership Development News profiles and practices of Top Performers. We're talking with Federico about his new book that's coming out. And today we're talking about The Unreliable Narrator. And just during the break, we're just talking about this idea. It's the story that counts.
It's not what happens. It's not the experience. You know, I mentioned I have this book called Processing the Experience, and we really talk about the co construction and it's the narrative. It may not even be what happened, but it's the story that counts. So say a little bit about the narrative and why is this so important, and why why are leaders not aware of that?
Federico Malatesta: So the as you say, I think that that's a very good place to start. We live according to stories that we make. They're not real stories. These are stories that we make ourselves. And the stories that we make for good reasons, usually a certain point in time.
What often happens with leaders, with anyone else, but with leaders in particular is that these stories don't work anymore at some point. They run their course. It doesn't mean that there were bad stories. It means that at some point they're not useful anymore. Now, one of the key things that happens later, especially in love and hate someone at the same time, we cannot understand ourselves too well.
And so the only way that we can get out of this cycle is for somebody to give us a different opinion, a different perspective, a different way of living. You know, I think one of the worst advice you can give to someone is like surround yourself by people like you.
Absolutely not. Surround yourselves by all types of people. Some that are like you, some that are not like you, some that live according to different values, different priorities.
This is how you expand life. And the moment life is expanded, you see more of it. And when you see more of it, you take wiser decision. You learn how to use judgment in different circumstances. That's why this third party is very important.
Now, should you have a support network? Absolutely. We need, you know, from time to time, we need somebody to support us. We're going through difficult moments. We don't want challenges all the time.
So both have a role, but you cannot bond without the others. So you were saying in the beginning, you know, if you ask ChatGPT it tells you that everything is well, that you're a genius and you're doing everything fine. And, you know, the interlocutor is something more like you ask ChatGPT, now really criticize my work harshly. Right.
That's the feedback we need.
Dr. Relly Nadler: And so that's so good. And and I was gonna bring that back also to what Kat said about AI. AI, like we said, is great. It's got great answers.
And I think you need the next set of questions with AI. So instead of taking it wholly and this is what you're saying as the interlocutor, that's what, who we are. It's probably easier just saying that we're a coach because that word is a little hard to pronounce it, but anyway, as a coach, we're challenging them. And even with AI, can you say, okay, I got it.
Be a contrarian. What are the ways that this won't work? And so this is what Kat and I were saying is the slow thinking, which is so important.
And so you talk about this idea. We talk about this idea of being in the gap, you know, and that's what, that's what we need. We need stimulus gap, new response, because we do stimulus, same response, same response. So you have a story about someone who in that gap, and maybe it was through your quote, your questioning as interlocutor.
I gotta keep saying that. So it rolls off the inter... Am I saying it right? Interlocutor. Interlocutor. Interlocutor that can change that story. So maybe share that.
Federico Malatesta: Yeah. So a story of a client of mine, his fictional name I use in my story is Robert. He sold his company in his, you know, late forties. He was doing very well. He started joining boards.
He said, I can contribute. I have a lot of business experience. And by the time he came to me, he had resigned from three different boards. And he had perfectly valid reason for which he had resigned. He liked the strategy, the CEO was not good enough, the supporting team could not do a good job preparing himself. The reasons were very good, but they were not the real reasons.
So through our coaching session, we realized, and he didn't even realize himself at the time, that he actually always took the decision of leaving before taking the decision of leaving.
It was an unconscious decision that he took at the moment his opinion was not valued. And working with him, for months, it turns out that his father was a very successful businessman who was very good at declining his opinion politely. And he never felt valued at home. And he went into business running, starting, and then building his own company when he was in charge of all of his decisions.
And he went to the board, suddenly he couldn't do that. And so every time a CEO would say, oh, thank you for your input, but, we're gonna move in a different direction. What his body was doing was projecting a word where it was refused by his father, where it was refused by other people. Yeah. It didn't...
It took some time for him to resign from the board, but that is the moment when that thing happened. And and so understanding that some things happen at an unconscious level, being aware of it is the first step.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Yep. That's great. So we would call that, and I love this term, it's an emotional bookmark. So when that person, got... Felt rejected, it wasn't in the...
Only in the moment. That emotional bookmark went back to chapters way back in their life, And there may be moment, many of those chapters, and that's the narrative that is not the present. Previous chapters are pushing out what's reality now.
Therefore, we're not that self aware. Maybe make a comment about that and then we'll go to our...
Federico Malatesta: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Now, what is the difficulty? Again, the silver bullet here is important. What is the difficulty? That sometimes those signals are faulty. We can have a bodily signal that tell us something is wrong and nothing is wrong.
There is no certainty in this assessment, which makes the assessment difficult, which makes the answer sometimes complicated.
Dr. Relly Nadler: So you use a lot of, we're familiar with Lisa Feldman Barrett's work, you know, about the emotions in the body or just a signal. And then we have this in our book, emotional brilliance, you see, casts, behind her that it's a signal and it goes to the brain and says, well, what is that signal? And that brain comes up with not just exactly what it is, but it names it. And sometimes it's an old name. It's an old story and it's named that.
Federico Malatesta: Yes, exactly. And that's why, and it goes back to what I'm talking about in the beginning with Aristotle and phronesis. How do you know, how do you judge? It takes time and wisdom to make the judgment.
It doesn't take a protocol. It takes time. Being aware of it, going through it in motions. And I, you know, I look at the work that you've been doing, I think we agree on many things. And the difficulty is that often this situation happen in very stressful environment where there is no gap. Yeah.
It's unexpected and the reaction is almost instantaneous. So how do you create that gap? How do you train yourself to make sure that there is a gap, there is time for that gap? Yep.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: So tell us a little bit about when you're working with a client and you start to hear the pattern and you start to inspect their own emotional self awareness, again, you're saying you have to get to the root of the foundation of the issue. But, obviously, there are some steps that you offer to give someone that capability. Can you share a little bit with us about what that looks like?
Federico Malatesta: Sure. The first thing is awareness is that there is nothing wrong with the person itself. These things, there is the natural events. There is not something wrong with the individual because these things happen.
It's not a failure. And the moment the clients understand that he's not failing at something, It is just that he has to understand what is happening. That is the first critical step because often, you know, managers, executives talk about the wrong reaction. Well often is what are the possibilities here? What does he say that something is right or wrong?
And you start to deconstruct the moment. So when we go with the clients on a decision that's been difficult or a moment, we start deconstructing and say, okay, is that really true? Can you actually make a case for this?
And the moment something moves from the unconscious to the conscious and they start questioning, then suddenly it's not, a very stressful moment that they have to solve. It's something that can apply the same technique that apply to other things.
And that demystifying the moment, I think is the most important kind of part of the journey.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: What Relly was saying earlier, yes, we have used something called name, notice, and normalize. Accept it, manage it in the moment, and express it when it's appropriate and in an appropriate way. So tell us a little bit about...
Now, we all use the word deconstruction. It's really, for our audience, just taking whatever's happening into segments that you can at least look at.
Like you said, this person knew before they were making the decision that they'd made the decision. How do we train our brain to pause long enough to stop thinking about that decision and recognize when it occurred? Is there some process that you use to do that?
Federico Malatesta: Well, the first thing I try to tell my clients is that start working in very low stress situation. And that often sounds silly and it's a little funny to do because you start doing this when you forget your keys and you get angry. In this very low stakes situation, we go through the same processes. It just not doesn't matter. We there's really low stake, but doing that when we have this small mishap in our daily lives, help us deal with bigger things because you don't get good at something when it's really, really difficult.
You know, like Cathy, I know you, you work with special forces. Am I right?
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Yes.
Federico Malatesta: So, and you know, they don't send them after two days into battle in a very complicated scenarios. They start training at a very low level and then over time to build up experience and expertise.
So the same thing happened to us. Thankfully, we don't have to go in that dangerous situation, but instead of waiting for the board meeting, do it when you're having a discussion with a friend. When something comes up and say, well, this makes me feel uncomfortable.
And we're just talking about sport. So why is that? What am I doing? What is happening? And if you start doing that, you will realize that you can translate these for bigger things over time.
It takes time. One of the biggest myths that I talk also in the book is about neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is real, but it takes a long amount of time. Yep. It takes effort on a very narrow issue, and it has to be an area where you get constant feedback.
And so starting with something very simple, where it's easy to get feedback, it is low stake, therefore it's low stress, is the best way to train yourself for bigger things.
Dr. Relly Nadler: So I love this. And so let's just keep going with this conversation. You know, right after this, I'm going to be on a panel that talks about neuroplasticity. And so my contribution to this is really around the story. Exactly why I love the narrative.
I mean, I've done training with called narrative therapy and it's the story that counts. It doesn't matter what happened. It's the story that you made up about this. And so this idea of leaders being be authentic. So how do you get at that?
And I understand what you're saying in these moments to practice is it's just is just challenging. And it goes back to what we say all the time. If you stay on autopilot, you stay average. Nobody has time. And what you're talking about is a...
Takes a lot of cognitive budget. It's hard to think about those emotional bookmarks. It's uncomfortable to think about that. How is that tracking to what my behavior is today? So how do you get in that territory with the leaders you're dealing with and, you know, and especially the knocking at the door saying, oh, that you should be authentic.
I'm like, okay, I thought I was.
Federico Malatesta: Yeah. Yeah. I have an issue with the term authentic, because it can mean a thousand different things. And when things mean thousand different things, they usually mean nothing. So let me give you my take on it.
So if we believe in a narrative story, if we live that we live over a narrative, narrative is something that we make up. So there is no authenticity, but the story and the story change.
The story change in depending on who am I talking to, depending on the environment, depending on a thousand factor. So which is authentic? They're all authentic and none of it is authentic.
So, what I say the leader perform better when they have a good story for what they're doing at the moment. And I have a definition of leadership, which is rather synthetic. I hope it translate well, the three elements, which I think are fundamental. The first one is moving forward. The second is under uncertainty.
And the third one is assuming responsibility. Okay. What do I mean? A leader has to move forward. A leader that doesn't move forward is not a leader.
You can be the most, you know, emotionally supportive person in the world. But if you don't move forward, you're a therapist, you're not a leader. The second is there is never certainty in life and in business.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Right.
Federico Malatesta: You need to understand you never have perfect information. You have a story, which is the best story you can come out with. And at some point you have to make a decision. If you wait for certainty, you will never make any decisions and therefore you're not a leader. The third element was links to the other two is assuming responsibility.
If you assume responsibility of your action, not only you are example for the team, but it also constrain the type of decisions that you will make because you know it's on you.
It's very easy to make very bold decision if somebody else has paid. But if you assume responsibility, you tell everyone, I think this is the right risk reward. So in this framework, authenticity doesn't matter. It's it's not a word that I would ascribe particular significance to.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: So when you're thinking about how to approach your client, a leader, and you're looking at all these different perspectives, some that fit for you, some that don't, some obviously that fit for the client, some that don't.
I'm currently in the process of finishing up a book that'll come out in January called Global Leadership Future Proof, which is a twenty fifth anniversary edition of a book called Global Leadership Next Generation. And we talk about shared leadership, collaborative leadership, and now conscious leadership. And I think one of the things that you're touching on that I want the audience to take away is when you're saying authentic may not be the right word, it's more about being your true self, being that person who, in any time of constraint, can still move forward, in any time of uncertainty, can move in a direction of certainty, and with certainty, and with the confidence that other people need to see to move with them.
And you have to also have that accountability that will lead other people to joining you and being responsible for the direction that you've all agreed to go in.
I just wanna make sure that I've heard you correctly there, Federico.
Federico Malatesta: Yes. I would say, look, we can talk about the true self separately, but I will say that, you know, a leader cannot have certainty. There's no certainty in business. There's no certainty in life. A leader that can say, I've looked at everything and this is the best decision I can think of at this moment in time.
And I'm bringing you with you and it's my responsibility. Right. So there are three elements. My best view of the world, not certain, not perfect, but the best I can do. And if it's if it's something doesn't work out, we'll readjust according to the next best story I can come up with, and it's going to be my responsibility.
The moment we tell certainty, we're bound for a disaster because there's no such thing.
Dr. Relly Nadler: And so where this is so important for the leaders listening to this, you know, what's your story? What's, what's your best view? And then can you just like we talked about with AI, can you have people challenge that? Most leaders will not do that. And if anything, they've trained people to nod their head like we're doing to agree.
And until you give them the prompt and using this word, the leader needs to say, okay, what have I missed? What would, what would our customer say? What would our people say? Let's bring in multiple viewpoints or multiple stories because this is just one story.
Federico Malatesta: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, look, you know, you, you know, I think I've heard you mentioning Warren Buffett in, in, in few other episodes. Right. Now Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are the perfect example of this.
They made difficult decision, risky decision. They challenge each other all the time. And sometimes it was the wrong decision. They said it and they recovered and they did something else. There was never certainty.
You never hear them talking about their authentic choice of their certain choice because there's no such thing. Say, well, we look at the numbers, we challenge each other. That's the best we could come out with.
Sometimes it doesn't work. It's okay. We'll recover.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: But that's the most difficult thing for most young leaders to understand. And the example that you used of the leader who, you know, sold his company and decided he should sit on boards, I just say, for those of you who are out there thinking about what your next big step is, it's not always gonna be easy for you to make that transition. And for each of us, unless we understand what fulfills us in life, taking the position that I can just move on and go help other people be successful may not be the right role for you if you're not willing to listen to what other people need and recognize that your perspective may not always be what they're looking for.
Federico Malatesta: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So if I can bring a personal example, I was the chief investment officer of a large oil and gas company. And one of my job was bring business cases to the board executive committee.
And you have people with a lot of business and with energy experience at that table. And people would reach looking at the same number at the same business case, very different, decisions. They would have very different conclusions. Should we do this? Should we not do this maybe in a different way?
And they have, there was a lot of expertise. So not about techniques of expertise. It's about judgment is often personal and you can have two people with exactly the same data looking at two very different decisions and that's okay.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Exactly. Well, so this is where that's going back to self awareness is so important. To kind of know your triggers, we introduced this term emotional bookmark. What are your, some of your emotional bookmarks that are getting in the way for now? But just to kind of bring us to a close, you know, we'll do a little bit of a lightning round here, Federico.
And if you're interested in more information on Federico, it's kind of like it sounds Federico, but then Malatesta, M A L A T E S T A, FedericoMalatesta.com. You can get ahold of that. His new book's going to come out, I think next week. So here we go. Delighting round and then you just fill in the blank.
Leadership is
Federico Malatesta: T
Federico Malatesta: taking difficult decision under uncertainty.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Beautiful. Okay. At work, it's all about
Federico Malatesta: doing something that you enjoy.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Okay. And then the last one, and this is also for leaders, you know, cause you talked a lot, what I would say in terms of the difference of are you doing or being, you know, and it's really, you're on the being side, a lot of leaders and the delusion is the doing side. And so during the day, what what's the best way for you to recharge to be, to be the bee of Federico? What's the best way to recharge?
Federico Malatesta: Oh, for me, it's simple. I just go to my horses in the pasture.
Dr. Relly Nadler: I figured you were gonna say that. That's great. Alright. Hey. Well, Kat, you wanna bring us home?
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Well, it's been a delightful conversation today with author and coach Federico Malatesta. Don't forget his book comes out this week. They Are Lying to You, The Self Help Delusion. Thanks again for tuning in to tune up your performance right here on Leadership Development News.
Until next time, take good care.
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