Announcer: Welcome to Leadership
Development News, profiles and
practices of top performers.
Leaders are the heartbeat of any
organization. Let Cathy
Greenberg and Relly Nadler share
with you the pathway to becoming
a top leader in your
organization. Now here are your
hosts, Dr. Greenberg and Dr.
Nadler.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Welcome to
Leadership Development News,
profiles and practices of top
performers. I'm doctor Relly
Nadler. Doctor Cathy Greenberg
and I have been doing this now
for over twenty years, and we're
really happy to bring you some
of the tips and tools from top
performers. We know a top
performer typically is high in
emotional intelligence. And they
know themselves.
They know how to manage others.
And we wanna bring you some of
their nuggets that can help. And
today, we're pretty excited to
see Ron Johnson, And he is the
person behind the Genius Bar of
the Apple stores that we all
know about. And he has a brand
new book that we're going to
highlight. And so we're excited
to pick his brain and how that
came about.
Some of his contact with Steve
Jobs, who we all know has been
such an innovator. And so, Cat,
welcome.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Hey there,
Relly. I am really excited to
talk to our guest today because,
as you know, I'm one of those
horrible people that mixes
software and hardware and drives
everybody crazy with my needs.
And I had such a great
experience this Friday. My
system at night always updates
itself, and I have a MacBook
Pro. And unfortunately, I'm one
of those Microsoft users on my
MacBook Pro, and I'm sure a lot
of people are out there going
cringe, you know, the cringe I
can hear it, I can feel it, I
can see it.
But I had this horrible thing
that kept happening pretty much
every week when it would update
and my contacts wouldn't
transfer over. And so on Friday
I was going to go to the Genius
Bar and I just happened to call
over to the Apple Store and this
wonderful gentleman came on the
phone with a beautiful French
Lingala accent from Africa and he
said Madam, can I ask you to
just let me come into your
computer and work with you
because if you come into the
store, it's likely not going to
be the experience you had
anticipated because you're
dealing with one hardware and
one software? One belongs to
Apple, one does not. And this
brings me to our beautiful guest
today because it doesn't matter
what your software or your
hardware is. Everyday business
leaders search for the next big
innovation, the hidden formula
to unlocking genius in design,
sales, and technology, and in
customer service, one of my
favorite subjects.
Apple Store creator Ron Johnson
discovered that genius can be
revealed by the customer
experience from developing a
vision for Apple Stores to
building a world class retail
team to launching game changing
innovations like the Genius Bar,
Johnson helped create the most
respected and profitable retail
stores in the world. In this
process, he redefined the
purpose of a brick and mortar
store and helped Apple become
America's best retailer. As I
just expressed in my own
experience just this past
weekend, I can't make this stuff
up. In his new book, Shop
Different: How Retail Revealed
Apple's Genius, which comes out,
hold on for it, this month,
maybe tomorrow. I want everybody
on the edge of their seat here.
HarperCollins is releasing this
great book and Johnson reveals
how he did it sharing timeless
lessons on innovation,
leadership design, and building
winning cultures rooted in love,
kindness, and the power of
relationships. You know, from
his early career as a merchant
leader at Target to his time
working alongside people like
Steven Jobs at Apple to his
tenure as CEO of JCPenney,
Johnson shares lessons to build
a customer experience grounded
in human connection rather than
transactions. And I can go on
here. We're going to discover a
lot more about this man's
history from Harvard to
wonderful Armani, Rolex, Goldman
Sachs. And I I have imagined
that we've probably passed each
other in the hallway at some
point, Ron, because I've worked
many, many years in many
different industries, but it is
such a pleasure to have you on
the show.
Welcome.
Ron Johnson: Well, Cat, it's
great to have you here. Know,
with your story about last
Friday, you know, we designed
the stores for people like you
And it is, I mean that
sincerely, it's gratifying to
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Well,
Ron Johnson: No, it's gratifying
to know that twenty five years
later, we're still delivering
really great experiences for
people because when we launched
the retail stores, Steve had
called me to talk to him about
it. And I went and spent three
hours he said, I can't win
without having stores. We've
tried for twenty five years
competing with Microsoft and
they've got 95% market share. If
you think of that in a sporting
good, a sports game analogy,
they won 19 to one. 19 out of 20
customers owned a PC in spite of
Apple having a great brand.
And Steve wanted to control the
customer experience. When we
were launching the stores, said,
well, the problem we got to
overcome is people's fear of
technology. Relly talked about
the importance of EQ. That's
what leaders have to understand.
They have to understand what is
the unique problem you've got to
solve through whatever you do,
could be a store to win a
customer.
And I think back then only half
of America had computers. So you
had to convince them why they
need a computer, but then you
had to convince them that they
bought a Mac, we would stand
behind it and help them out. And
we designed the store to do
exactly that. And that's I think
what made the stores the most
respected stores in the world
because people feel like Apple
truly cares about them. And in
many ways they belong to the
store, It's a place they can be.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Yeah. Yeah. So
looking at the culture that you
built, a couple of things jumped
out because it is a little
unusual when you talk about
winning a culture with love,
kindness, and the power of
relationships. So maybe take us
back. Like, how are those so
grounded for you?
And a lot of times we talk about
your key influences. But I think
sometimes we lose in the
business where we don't have
time for love. We don't have time
for kindness. We don't have
time for really building a
relationship because we gotta we
gotta produce. So maybe say a
little bit of where those came
from.
Ron Johnson: Well, I can't. We
do have time. We just don't give
it time. You know?
Dr. Relly Nadler: Right. Right.
Ron Johnson: For for now, for
me, I talk about in this book
and I realized that, when you're
doing things, like when I
decided to build the Apple Store
built on love, I just did it
because that's what felt right.
But when I look back as I wrote
the book, I tell a story. My
first memory as a child, I was
four years old, I was in the
principal's office of my
elementary school.
Dr. Relly Nadler: At four?
Ron Johnson: At four, but it's because I hadn't
got in yet, hadn't got in
trouble, but I was interviewing
to see if I could start a year
early.
My mom was with me and the
principal asked me a question,
Ron or Ronnie, what color is
George Washington's white horse?
And I said black. And obviously
not the right answer. And we
left and I, my first memory as a
child is my mom reaching down,
putting her hands on my
shoulders, saying, Ronnie, no
matter what happens, I will
always love you.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Wow.
Ron Johnson: Yeah. And so my
first experience I remember as a
person was making a mistake, but
knowing that I'm loved. And
that's the kind of home I grew
up in. And I grew up outside of
Minneapolis where Minnesota was
known for Minnesota nice. You
naturally just did things for
others.
When the neighbor, I remember next
to our neighbor, her
husband passed away. My brother
and I had another driveway to
shovel all winter. He just did
those kinds of things. And so
you really, I grew up in a place
where you were always trying to
be kind to others. And so
kindness was a way of life for
me.
And when I was meeting Steve,
first interview back in
November, ninety nine, asked me
a question, he goes, well, when
we build these stores, what's the
service philosophy gonna be?
And I said, well, it's very
simple. We're going to love our
customers. And he said, I don't
love our customers. What do you
think we're going to love our
customers?
I said, Steve, you do. He said,
I don't. He goes, I design great
products. And I said, well,
that's an act of love. Every
time you make something easy to
use for someone like Cat, maybe
like Relly, you are choosing to
secure their good.
And that's what love is. You
identify a need that another
person has and you secure the
good. And we're going do that
every time a customer walks in
the store. We'll find out what
brought them there today. We're
going to ask how we can help.
We're gonna solve their
curiosity, their interests,
their problem, and then we'll
give them a fond farewell. And
those are small acts of love,
but that's how we'll build the
customer base, one customer at a
time. And when I joined Apple,
we had 25,000,000 customers,
which pretty big number, Steve
thought it was. Today Apple has
2,000,000,000 people using Apple
devices globally. But
realistically, every one of
those customers bought their
first product, deepen their
relationship bought another one.
And so the customer service
business is the thing where you
have to slow down, you can't be
in a hurry, you earn customers
one at a time, and the best way
to practice that is through
kindness. It was my strong
opinion.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Oh, it's
absolutely beautiful. My So
motto these days is there is no
AI without AI. We really get
lost in the idea that these
large brained technology
creatures known as AI are
creating all this wonderful
goodness on their own. But you
and I both know and our audience
probably knows that that
goodness comes from the hearts
and minds of other human beings.
And if we don't recognize that
the right people have to be
putting information into the
great circle of AI or we're
gonna have the same thing we had
in the 1990s, if you'll recall,
which is garbage in garbage out.
And and so it's really important
that people hear that story of
love and kindness. And I could
just see you sitting across from
Steve Jobs trying to convince
him of that because that was
certainly not top of list for
him. But Yeah. I wanna just make
sure our audience knows how to
reach out to you, Ron Johnson.
And you can reach out to Ron at
RonJme dot com.
That's him. RonJme dot com or
you can go to his website, which
is RonJohnson,
shopshopsdifferent.com.
Ronjohnsonshopsdifferent.com.
Okay? We'll we'll come back to
give you some more information
on Ron as we go up through...
As we go throughout the show,
but I wanted to make sure that
we mention that. And you tell us
a little bit about people that
have influenced you a little bit
about your your background. And
we like to know, you know,
obviously, it was probably more
than your mom putting her hands
on your shoulders, letting you
know that you were gonna be
loved no matter what. But who
else who else has been an
influencer?
Ron Johnson: I had...
Throughout, I think if you
really think deeply, many people
have influenced you. But when I
was
young, it was coaches. I played
sports. And I remember having a
great baseball coach from age 12
through 15, who just taught me
to excel and be a great
teammate.
So Gordie Nevers was a great
coach. When I came out of
Stanford and I worked for a guy
named Art Cobb and he taught me
how to kind of get started in
business. And then I went to
Mervyn's and a guy named Jerry
Gallagher became a lifelong
friend and he had a huge impact.
He was the COO of Dayton Hudson
at the time. Some of the people I
worked with at Target had
influence, but the most
important was Steve.
You know, because I reported to
Steve for twelve years. I
reported to Steve Jobs more than
any other boss I ever worked
for. So, you know?
Dr. Relly Nadler: So tell us, tell
us a little bit about that, you
know, because,
you know, some of what we... You
know, Cathy and I are coaches.
We're dealing with leaders all
the time. And one of the things,
if you are a leader, you're
leading the team, it's your one
on one with your direct report.
That's the power position.
Maybe say a little bit about it.
What about that power position
with Steve? Because we know all
the stories and, you know, and
he may not have been...
Supposedly, you would know more
than anybody, the kindest
person. But how are those one on
ones?
Ron Johnson: Well, he was a kind
person. Okay. And I know that
because we debated it one time.
Uh-huh. And he said...
He goes, Ron, I know you love
kindness. You know what I think
kindness is? I said, what? And
he said, wearing your opinion on
your sleeve, telling the
unvarnished truth. He goes,
that's the nicest thing I can do
for somebody because they
deserve to know exactly where
they stand.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Interesting.
Ron Johnson: Yeah. Yes. That was
his view of kindness. And from
that perspective, Steve was
exceptionally kind. You always
knew where he stood.
But Steve, no, but seriously,
Steve was a wonderful human
being and he wasn't a formal
manager in any way, shape or
form. I never had like what you
might call a weekly status with
Steve, where we'd sit down and
update each other on what we're
doing. He would just pick up the
phone and want to chat, I'd pick
up the phone and talk to him.
And I remember about thirty days
into my tenure at Apple, I said
to him one day, Steve, we're
designing these stores to reach
customers we've never reached
before. So if you think about
that, if we're successful or
when we're successful, the
stores will be the first
impression a customer has of
Apple.
He looked at me and he didn't
say anything. Then the phone
rang a little bit later and he
said, what time do your kids go
to bed? I said 08:00. Goes,
that's perfect, mine too too,
can I give you a call? I said,
sure, I'm not doing anything
tonight.
And he said, no, every night,
every night for about a year,
for about a year. Really? And
for a year straight, obviously a
night or so missed, but the
phone would ring at 08:00 or
08:10 or 08:15. It'd be Steve,
Hi. There wasn't any agenda.
He just wanted to talk. But he
said to me, Ron, everything I do
at Apple, almost everything I do
here, I can touch every day at
the office. I go to the design lab
work with Jony on products
and see the updates on the new
designs. All the advertising
comes through. I look at the
ads, the graphic panels,
whatever.
The software I try in my office,
because you're gonna be picking
real estate locations around the
world, every location. The first
thing it says to a customer is
something about Apple by where
we locate. You're gonna have to
design all these stores. You're
gonna hire people that I will
never meet. For this to work,
you just need to know how I
think.
And the best way to know how I
think is for us to just talk
about everything. Families,
faith, movies, whatever we care
about, and you'll be able to
know how I would think. And then
you only have to ask me a
question if you don't know how I
think, or you want my opinion on
how to do something even better.
So you think of the kind of
leader that is, that's a huge
investment in personal time in
my development. But it's also
very empowering because he was
the best delegator I ever worked
for.
So all of these things about
high standards, attention to
detail, but a great delegator.
Spoke with clarity, told you
where you stood, but he wasn't
challenging you. He was
challenging the idea or the
current execution. I never felt
disrespected by Steve. I knew he
believed in me.
So Steve was a great human being
and he taught me how to be a
leader. It's interesting at
Apple, you've had years of
Steve's leadership, and then you
had years of Tim's management.
And I think if you were writing
a business school case, you'd
say, Steve's the leader, Tim's
the manager, both did
exceptional jobs. They're just
very different. You know, and
you know, are you a leader?
Are you a manager? I think you
gotta pick a lane because it's
not easy to be both.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: So
interesting, you talk about this
idea of significance and I
worked with a priest who worked
with Mother Teresa for twenty
eight years, in fact I have a
picture of her on my desk at all
times wherever I am. And when I
went to the canonization for her
at the Vatican, these priests
were all talking about something
that Mother Teresa used to say
to all of them which is how are
you going to move from success
to significance in life? And I
just think it's such a beautiful
thing that you raise in your
book, you speak about
significance as it pertains to
work, but how might you
encourage those wondering about
their future to figure out what
feels significant to them and
why does this matter, especially
now with AI?
Ron Johnson: Yeah, that's a
great question. You know, I'd
love to hear your take on this
with Mother Teresa, but yeah, my
dad always said, Ron, you should
do something, always do
something significant. I said,
well, how do you determine
significance? And he said, look
it up. And I looked it up in the
dictionary and it had two words
has meaning.
And if you look up the word
meaning in the different
dictionary, it says is
significant. It's just like one
of these circular definitions.
But what it meant to me was what
is significant is going to vary
from person to person. And what
had meaning to mother Teresa,
obviously is serving other
people, you know, and what has
meaning to me is going be
different than has meaning to
you or somebody else. But if you
pursue something significant or
that has meaning to you, meaning
to you, you are now fulfilling
your purpose in life.
And I think each of us, no
matter what religion you believe
in, you kind of have something
inside which excites you that is
a purpose. And the people who
pursue their uniquely defined
purpose, I think, have the most
fulfilled lives and they tend to
be the most successful. And
that's where when you, the
people that you really admire,
they've kind of done the same
thing their whole life and they
just been committed to it. We
see that a lot in artists. We
see it a lot in athletes.
We see it a lot in you know,
certain fields like Mother
Teresa. You know, Saint Francis
of Assisi, who is one of Steve's
favorite idols mentors. Believe
that or not. Is that
interesting? Wow.
But, you know, that's, you see
it in people like that. And for
me, I just had a lifetime love
of retail and serving customers
through a store. For whatever
reason, that had meaning to me.
And I spent my life doing that.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Well, it's
beautiful. And I just want to
comment on this before tossing
the reins back to Relly. There's
something you said there that I
want our audience to kind of
think about, which is empowering
yourself to turn somebody else's
challenge into a lasting success
that you help them achieve. And
if we keep that in mind every
time we have an interaction with
another human being, what a
special meaning Yeah. We will
have in every moment in every
day of our lives, whether we're
in a store or virtually working
with human beings.
And you said you said it in a a
different way, Ron, but it was
very meaningful that if
everybody can figure out a way
to meet their own needs for
understanding success by
understanding the needs of
someone else and turning that
challenge into a moment of
success for both of us, Wow,
it's huge. And I do feel that
that happens at the Apple
stores. And I am just, I cannot
tell you how important it is for
people to understand that.
Ron Johnson: Yeah, I I'm with
you a 100%. We used to tell our
employees never be in a hurry.
Just take care of that customer
and be with them until you solve
the problem. And if someone else
is waiting, acknowledge them say
I'll be with you as soon as I
can, but take care. The most
important person is the one in
front of you, be present, focus,
and then you'll serve the next
one.
And our employees would go
through their whole day and
they'd be exhausted at the end,
but they spent their whole day
in deep connection with other
people. And if we hired the
right people, that was just a
gratifying way to spend your
day. You weren't selling things,
were just serving people. And I
remember telling Steve, we're
not gonna sell our way to
success. That's transactional,
that's temporary.
We will serve our way to
significance. That's what the
Apple Store did. I think they
became what they are because we
serve people. And I think it's
another one of those very
natural things. We all sometimes
get too busy, but it's very
gratifying to help someone.
And in many ways, it's the
little moments throughout your
day when you do something kind
for someone that give you the
motivation to keep going. And I
think it's contagious for them
as well. And that's what's
beautiful to me about a retail
store. It's all a sum of a lot
of little moments where you're
helping somebody and it it can
change it can change things for
people. You know?
Dr. Relly Nadler: Well, let me,
pick up on that. You
know, one of the things that,
just around the purpose, the
idea, and I just heard this
definition. So if if you're in
touch with your purpose, the,
consequence of that, it really
changes other people. So it's
not kinda what my purpose is,
but it kinda goes back to what
we're all talking about is is
service.
And so we're gonna go to a a
quick break. But when we come
back, one of the things you just
said, you know, about every
meaningful moment in your life
is tied to a store. And so we'll
come back to that because, you
know, I don't know if everybody
else would say, oh, wait a
minute. So we'll we'll get to,
you know, the how and the why of
that when we come back. So
you've been listening to
Leadership Development News, and
we'll be right back.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: All clear.
Dr. Relly Nadler: One second. I
gotta
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Welcome
back to Leadership Development
News. We're having a lovely
engaging and kind conversation
here with our new buddy Ron
Johnson. We're talking about
your new book which is coming
out actually in the next twenty
four hours. We want to talk a
little bit about your
experiences tied to meaningful
moments. And there's something
that you say in the book about
meaningful moments being tied to
a store.
And some of us have that
relationship to other human
beings when we're in connection
to them in different
environments. But why in a
store, Ron?
Ron Johnson: Well, it's unique
to me, not to everybody, but we
talked about each have our own
definition of meaning. For me
that was, I'm gonna be put my
head down and become a great
retailer and impact the world
through a store. And I met
Michael Graves. Do you remember
Michael? He was an architect.
He did that design collection
with me at Target. And Michael
said to me once, Ron, we each
get ten great days. And when we
launched his collection, he
said, this is one of my ten
great days. And I thought about
that and I'm taking away
obviously the personal days,
like having your children, those
are more important, your
relation with your family,
etcetera. But outside of that,
for me, if I look at back in my
ten great days, they all kind of
happened in a store.
I remembered launching the
Michael Graves collection at
Target. That was the first
collaboration between a designer
and a retailer or a brand that
had never been done before,
believe it or not. And Michael
and I did that, we launched with
140 products and walking to a
Target store and seeing how it
was going to change Target. That
was a great moment. The day we
launched our first Apple store,
nobody is in line.
Thirty minutes before I called
Steven and said, Steve, I think
I blew it. I don't know what's
the location or what, but
there's nobody here. He said, be
patient, they'll come. And by
the time the store opened thirty
minutes later, the line went out
into the parking lot and it was
just a great day. And then
opening the 5th Avenue store,
that glass cube, after all that
time, looking for a site,
building something, it ended up
changing the skyline of
Manhattan at 32 feet.
Launching the iPhone, watching
people sit outside for a week
plus to get their hands on this
product that you kind of knew
was going to change, not just
Apple, but change the world,
change people's lives. And all
of those things for me happened
in stores. Because that was my
life's mission to connect with
people through a physical
experience in a place, in a
store, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. And so for me, I
love being in stores.
It's funny, I always have, I
grew up two miles from the first
enclosed shopping mall in the
world. That was invented a bike
ride from my little house where
I got, you know, blew the
question. It was a four year
old, you know, that was, that
was like a mile and a half from
there. So it was really close.
And so I think it was kinda
meant for me.
And I still have... Every time I
get a chance, I just wander
through stores. I love to go on a
hike. So
Dr. Relly Nadler: what's
interesting about this, you
reminded me of... You know, I
grew up in Paramus, New Jersey,
which basically had a bunch of
these shopping centers. And
maybe some of what you're saying
is also when you're at a store,
it's that sense of independence.
You know? You probably have to
be old enough to be on your own,
and then everything is out
there.
So it... It's in abundance out
there, and you're basically
kinda seeing, you know, the
world at your feet.
Ron Johnson: Oh, no. If you're,
when you're a young kid and my
parents used to drop us off the
mall. That's right. It was safe.
But there were all kinds of
stores.
There were clothing stores.
Right. There were sporting goods
stores. Yeah. Yeah.
They were movie theaters. I
mean, As a kid, it was kind of
like abundance. That's exactly
right. And you see the world.
That was before, remember we had
internet.
We'd see the world through
books, maybe reading, maybe on
our black and white televisions,
but a store was in color. It was
alive and had a heartbeat. There
are other people there and
there's products there and
they're constantly changing. I
don't know, I found it to be a
very exciting place to be.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Well, let me
let me kinda shift here because
one of the things that you talk
about in your book is
creativity. And, you know, and Cat
and I are, you know, as
coaches and organizations, you
know, we're... We talk about the
world is fast thinking. And if
you get in front of a coach or a
good friend or maybe a
therapist, you can do slow
thinking. Why?
Some of it is you can be more
creative and you can kind of
think about stuff more, kind of
like we're doing now. And we're
picking your brain where it's
what we would call slow
thinking. But you talked about
skepticism gets in the way of
creativity. And I think we would
all agree with that. And because
we quickly go, the mind has this
negativity bias.
You hear someone talk about
something and the brain goes,
oh, well, that won't work here
or that didn't work And it
quickly goes to what doesn't
work, which is throwing a cape
over creativity. So maybe say a
little bit about that.
Ron Johnson: Yeah. That's a
really... You know, Jony Ive,
who worked with Steve on all the
product design, he had this
thought that... And he said it
many times that ideas are
fragile things. Yeah.
Fragile. And when you're doing
something creative, you're doing
something, you're delving into
your imagination. You're in a
world, I mean, creativity to me
is doing something that's never
been done before. And you're,
it's an idea and you saw inside
of you that you have to get out.
That's a, you have a painter or
a brush with paints, and they're
expressing something on that
easel that even they don't know
as they do it, what it's going
to become.
Sculptor with a block reveals
that sculpture. It's the same
thing with an idea. It's the
same thing with creativity. And
you've got to slow down and you
got to shut your eyes, you got
to get quiet and you've got to
let the idea reveal itself to
you. You don't discover a new
idea walking around.
When you walk around, you see
things, you expose the world,
you see things you can do, but
that leads to improvement. And
improvement's really good when
you copy what someone else has
done, you can improve things.
But that's not creativity.
Creativity always is expressing
something through your
imagination. And skeptics get in
the way of that because once
someone says it can't be done or
have you thought about this?
You start compromising. And the
best ideas are these pure,
beautiful things that get at the
essence of what you're trying to
solve. Steve used to say, if you
thought through anything hard
enough, you'll come to the only
answer and everyone agree that
it's right. No, it wasn't just
get things out there quick and
change it. He thought if you
thought it through hard enough,
you'd always get to the right
answer.
And I subscribed to that
philosophy and therefore you got
to be really careful. Someone
asked me once, if you had a
thousand person company, how
many people do you want to be
believers and how many skeptics
would you want? I said, I don't
know, I'd probably want about 10
skeptics. I said, I'd want
someone, maybe my chief
financial officer, maybe an
Operations Officer. But I said,
everyone else has to believe.
Because if you don't believe,
you're not going to change the
world. Because anytime you're
doing something that no one
thinks is going to work, the
only way to get there is by a
team of people that have belief.
When we brought design to
Target, that was an act of
belief. Nobody thought that
would make sense. When we opened
the Apple stores during the time
when most people thought the
internet would wipe out stores,
it's kind of like, just like
today, AI is going to end the
world.
Back then in 2000, internet
shopping was going to be the end
of stores. Well, it turned out
it was the rebirth of the store.
Everyone got it wrong except
Apple. We were one of those that
really believed in stores, but
the team I had had to believe in
the power of a store and how are
we going to approach it or we
wouldn't accomplish what we did.
So I really believe it's really
important to operate with
belief, have your eyes wide
open, be conscious of what are
the challenges going to be, but
you've got to get to the other
side to get your idea out there.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: There's
something else you said in the
book that I don't want to lose
and that is that genius is a
team game.
Ron Johnson: Absolutely.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: So I think
there's something here that's
telling me that this is all tied
into that belief system.
Ron Johnson: It is. I mean, gets
credit for creating the phone,
like say the iPhone, Steve and
who invented the iPhone? The
smartphone. People would say
Steve Jobs. Steve worked with a
team of passionate, smart
people.
They worked together on every
aspect of that. And in every
meeting, Steve knew he wasn't
the smartest person in the room.
He didn't care who the smartest
person was. He wanted the
smartest idea to reveal itself.
And collectively, the genius of
that group, what was revealed
was the iPhone.
But that took people that were
good hardware engineers,
software engineers, product
designers, marketers, people
with intuition like Steve had,
who could guide the team, create
a kind of conversation that
would reveal the best ideas. And
the outcome of that was genius.
And someone always gets credit
for it. Like I get credit for
the stores, because I was kind
of the first, was hired to lead
stores. I was the chief of the
stores, whatever you do, but it
was a team game.
And there were so many people
when I look at the store, see
different people in every
aspect, whether it's something
in the physical design,
something in the culture. I see
Denise, I see Bob, I see Jerry,
people who worked on that. I
might get to write the book,
tell the story. But I'm not the
genius. The genius was the
collection of people that did
that at that time.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Beautiful.
Dr. Relly Nadler: One of the
things that you have, and I'm
sure in your book that comes out
tomorrow, is that the Genius Bar
came from the hotel model.
And
what did retail leaders, what did
they
misunderstand about service
before that? Again, it's kind of
like-
Ron Johnson: Well, here it was
fascinating. So I had an
off-site led by a really amazing
woman, Dr. Alena Roos, R-O-O-S,
maybe you met her at some point,
but we had an icebreaker
question. We had 18 very unique
people gathered in a room, very
few from Apple. And I said,
we're gonna meet now for two
days to imagine the customer
experience we should deliver in
a store.
It wasn't about the store design
as much as it was, what's the
experience gonna be? And as an
icebreaker, why don't we go
around there? Everyone tells
about the best experience she
ever had. Maybe Cat just told us
about her experience, on getting
her terrible Microsoft Outlook
problem solved by someone over
the phone. Of the 18 people, 16
thought they were clever.
They said, well, I was at a
hotel once and here's what
happened. And they all talked
about hotels. And so I stopped
after we got through the 18, I
said, wait a minute, time out.
Why did we all bring hotel
experiences? You guys got the
message, we're here to design a
store experience.
I expected you to talk about
Nordstrom or something like
that. Then we said, well, are in
the business of serving people.
Stores are in the business of
selling things. And in their
essence, that's true. You go to
a hotel, from a business model,
know you've already booked the
hotel, you're gonna stay there a
week or whatever you're doing
for a vacation.
They're gonna take care of you.
So, you have a great experience
and you'll come back again or
you'll tell a friend. But they
wake up every day welcoming you
at the concierge, having great
restaurants, changing your room,
giving you advice, whatever,
making sure you have a great
stay. They're in the service
businesses. Stores are designed
to sell products.
And most people spend their
whole time running a store
going, what were sales
yesterday? What was our
conversion? How do we improve
our average dollar sale? All
these things that have nothing
to do with the experience the
customer's gonna feel. After we
had that conversation, said,
okay, let's do this for the next
two days.
Let's imagine the store
experience as if we were
creating a five star hotel
hospitality experience. And
that's how we thought about the
store. Absolutely. Changed
everything. Honestly, it changed
everything.
And then we had the good fortune
that the Ritz-Carlton, we got to
know Pat Mene who was heading
their service stuff and invited
our first 10 store managers to go
open a Ritz-Carlton hotel.
And they went to two of them and
they had a great experience
learning how the Ritz does it.
Because even though they're more
formal and more serving ladies
and gentlemen, they knew how to
deliver a culture and service
across every hotel. And we had
to not just do it in one store,
had to do it every store
anywhere in the world. And they
taught us how to build the right
kind of model to deliver great
service.
But it was built on, our whole
atmosphere was built on luxury
hospitality.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: And you
know, it's interesting as you're
speaking, we're having a mind
meld here. So Horst Schulze,
right?
Ron Johnson: Right.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: The father
behind all of that was a
gentleman I served on at Cancer
Treatment Centers of America on
their board. And we learned a
lot about treating cancer
patients from how you want to be
treated in a five star hotel.
And to the point you just made,
whether you're saving a life at
a treatment center or you're
saving someone's laptop or their
work product or their actual, I
I wanna say, of life's
creativity that's in that piece
of equipment. That's exactly
what you're doing. And I I...
It's fascinating that people
don't think outside the box
often enough to recognize the
beauty of somebody else's
experience. So when you say
think different Mhmm. Think
different actually looks like
operationally inside of Apple
day to day, What... Tell us what
that means.
Ron Johnson: Well, with that, I
mean, Steve obviously used the
think different campaign. It's a
beautiful ad if you just go back
to... When he came back to Apple
in '97, he said the problem is
Apple had to just change, wipe
everything clean in their minds.
And they had to think different.
And the people who are crazy
enough to think different are
the doers who changed the world.
And he wanted to get that
mindset into Apple. What it
looks like in practice is
everything you do, it's back to
what I said before, you're
thinking about things purely
from within on what will change
the world for like a customer
and service, not looking out at
what you see. Because if you
look out what you see, you're
not thinking different. You're
listening to someone else's
voice. You got to let your own
internal voice.
So example, your point about the
hospital and Horst, bringing
hospitality to cancer victims.
The way we looked at that is,
okay, we're not in the
transaction business, we're in
the relationship business. And
we're going to build
relationships with customers
that are for a lifetime. Then we
just went to the simple thought
is, well, we're going to be
launching relationships when
they come in the store for the
first time or buy their first
product. We'll deepen when they
come back to attend a class or
get a training session or buy
another product.
But when they have a problem,
we're restoring their
relationship. And what's broken
isn't their product, it's their
trust in Apple. It's their
ability to do what they bought
that product for. So a cancer
victim, what's broken, the
disease is breaking their
ability to live their life to
the fullest. So you're trying to
restore that patient's health.
You're not curing a disease,
you're restoring health. You're
not fixing a computer, you're
restoring their trust in Apple.
So you're looking at things and
to me that's a different way to
think. So that's an example of
think different. It's not always
a brand new product,
but
it's just taking the time to let
your inner voice
speak. And that to me is the,
and in the world of AI, it's the
most important thing because
common knowledge is now a query
away. You don't have to have
gone to school, whatever, you
can know what the world would
do, what it recommends, what the
outer voice would say with a
little query into my favorite
chatbot. But that should free up
time for your inner voice
because that's where all of the
original thinking has come from
the inside of someone who
thought different. So Apple has
built a business for fifty
years, especially the last
twenty five, thinking different.
And you really sense they
embrace that, you feel it with
every interaction with them. How
they advertise, their new
product launches, their product
design. Sure, they're always
first, but you can tell they
thought different about what they
do.
Dr. Relly Nadler: That brings us
back
where we're getting down to the
end here, but you just
highlighted one of the questions
that you say, and I think Cathy
and I would agree, the most
important conversation you have
is the one with ourselves. And
then in the age of AI, and that
kind of brings us back to
emotional intelligence, what
should that conversation be with
ourselves? Because one of the
taglines I always talk about, if
you stay on autopilot, you stay
average. And that means we're
having the same conversation
over and over, and it's not
taking us to new territory.
So what do you... Like, what's
your insight about this
conversation with yourself?
Ron Johnson: Well, I just enjoy
talking to myself. I mean,
sounds crazy. But, you know,
I... The other day, was... I had
to drive from the Bay Area to
Lake Tahoe.
It was, a four hour car drive.
Right. And someone said, so what
are you going to listen to? What
podcasts? What music?
I said, I'm going to listen to
myself. If I am in the car for
four hours, I don't have
anything on.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Yeah.
Ron Johnson: I love that quiet
time to just see what I wanna
think about. What I wanna
ruminate on. Whenever I go for a
long walk, I spend a lot of time
in South of France. So I'll
spend an hour and a half a day
probably walking by the sea. I
don't listen to music.
I'm just present with my mind,
my thoughts. And it's amazing
how many things I can think
about. That's a conversation.
Every time you're thinking
alone, you're weighing pros and
cons and evaluating and thinking
deeply about things. That's the
conversation with yourself.
That's the one you have before
you go to someone else. And
that's what informs how you
think. Well, the big fear I have
is with all the time people
spend on screens. Unfortunately,
I think we're at peak digital
screen time. I think every
evidence says screen time is
going to come down now.
People understand the importance
of it with young kids and all
that. You see what Australia is
doing. Tim Cook was there
talking about that with the
Prime Minister last week. Screen
time is coming down. That's
gonna free up time for us to be
with ourselves.
Right. And we gotta be
comfortable being alone with
ourselves, with our thoughts,
and really applying that to my
life. How do I wanna be as a
parent? How do I wanna be as a
friend? How do I want to be as a
member of this community?
How do I want to be at work? How
do I want to be? How do I want
to express? What in my unique
personal geography can I bring
to work? Not what does the
company think they want me to
say?
What do I believe? And you're
only gonna find out what you
believe by having a deep
conversation with yourself.
Dr. Cathy Greenberg: Beautiful.
As we start to close the show
here, Ron, one thing I'd love
all of our audience to think
about in terms of a conversation
with ourselves is we all have
this fear about technology. And
if people would just flip the
script and think of it this way,
if we can offload the
administrative tasks, the things
that don't require our
compassion for ourselves and
others to the AI models of the
world, think of the beauty of
the ten years that we can have
in the future of the way it used
to be ten or fifteen years ago
when we would have that peace
and quiet in ourselves and the
ability for us to have better
human connections with other
humans instead of having the
face time that we so cherish and
want because people are so busy
with the screen time, whether
it's a doctor who's trying to
take notes while they're serving
us or an administrator who's
trying to schedule us to get in
to see that specialist. I think
you've tapped into something
here and in your book, Shop
Different: How Retail Reveals
Apple's Genius. You've spoken to
all of us in different ways with
different words and in different
hearts each of us embrace.
And I think it's such a powerful
experience. So thank you so much
for being with us today and
sharing all your wisdom. It's
been absolutely beautiful.
Relly, I'm going to give the
last few minutes to you.
Dr. Relly Nadler: Well, Ron, we
could talk a lot more, but we
got to run. So, you know, thank
you. Hopefully, folks will tap
into your creative thinking and
your service thinking with your
book, and they'll go out and and
get it. So thank you very much.
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